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 RE: The Hobbit film
on: September 03, 2011 05:53
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(...) Being that the swords are from Gondolin, which had its own system of runes, I still believe it would be highly reasonable that the swords would be engraved in that system, which explains why Elrond would be needed to read them.
I'm still wondering about this. I'm not sure what the source is for Gondolin having its own, notably different system of runes.
In The Treason of Isengard Christopher Tolkien notes that the earliest example -- that's externally earliest, not earliest within the story -- the earliest example of true runic writing associated with Tolkien's Elves are the Gondolinic runes. It's noted that they are different from the Angerthas Daeron, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are imagined as different within the tale, or internally. The Gondolinic runes are dated in the 1920s (fairly early, externally) and they might be different because they are simply an early foray into a runic system used by Elves. The name itself might imply there were other systems I guess, but that's not very certain.
Here is some information I was able to find on the Gondolin runes - it's not direct from a canon source, (I'm not at home and don't have any with me) but it's information that someone has compiled on Tolkien's runes and languages:
"This system was perhaps an invention of Pengolodh or other loremasters, and was employed obviously in Gondolin (or in Nevrast, at earliest).
Like the Tengwar and the Cirth, the forms of these runes show a relation between sound and shape. It is not known if the few similarities to the cirth are coincidental or not. Pengolodh, however, was not aware of the Cirth before he, with the survivors of destroyed Gondolin, migrated to the Mouths of Sirion.
It is not known if the values given by Tolkien (and presented here) are the original, or his own adaptation for writing English, Modern or Old. One reason against the former is that the sounds given are not found in the known elven languages of the First Age, but it may be that it was designed for notating a variety of languages. Glamdring and Orcrist, the famous swords, had probably inscriptions in that system, because Elrond (who it is stated to know of all types of runes) could read their inscriptions since he was born in Arvernien, while Gandalf was unable to.
The system of Gondolin was perhaps dropped out of use after its fall, but used for a while in Arvernien. It is mentioned that there Pengolodh was fascinated by the Certhas Daeron brought by the survivors of Doriath (perhaps it seemed to him a more perfected system), and adopted it for his works. They seem to have been obsoleted and forgotten by the Third Age, and this is supported by the abovementioned fact that only Elrond could read the swords’ inscriptions.
This system has appeared only in an article of Mythlore issue 69, by Paul Nolan Hyde, publishing an early concept of Tolkien. Its existence is not explicitly stated in the known later texts, but the above story about Glamdring is evidence that indeed a different kind of runes was used in Gondolin."
"This form of runes, while superficially similar to other runic systems such as the Angerthas or the Anglo-Saxon runes, has a unique relationship between the shapes of the letters and the sounds. Noticeable in this system is the use of diamond shapes which make it look different from other rune systems. Almost all that we know of the Gondolinic Runes was published by Paul Nolan Hyde in Mythlore, No. 69, in the summer of 1992. For information on the original publication check out unpublished and slightly published manuscripts and scroll down to the bottom for how to order back issues of Mythlore. I give here a chart based on that information.
Interestingly enough, it has not been possible to determine exactly which language Tolkien had in mind when he produced this alphabet. The letters do not match the pattern of phonemes of any of the languages we might expect, such as the languages of Middle-earth or the Indo-European languages of the real world. However, the phoneme system is fairly close to Old English, though it is not clear what they needed with unvoiced n. Since Gondolin was known for the learning of the linguists who lived there, it may be that the alphabet was designed to be used for notating a variety of languages. The alphabet is quite sufficient for writing English, however. For that purpose, I include a list here of the pronunciation of some of the less obvious sounds.
There is no known example by Tolkien of the use of the Gondolinic Runes, however we find an apparent reference to their use in The Hobbit. Tolkien describes the swords which Bilbo, Gandalf and the dwarves find in the troll hoard, "Two [swords] caught their eyes particularly, because of their beautiful scabbards and jeweled hilts." The swords are much too fine to be the product of trolls, but Gandalf is unable to read the inscriptions and says, "when we can read the runes on them we shall know more about them," [Chapter on Roast Mutton]. Later in Rivendell the swords are shown to Elrond because "Elrond knew all about runes of every kind." He tells them that "They are old swords, very old swords of the High Elves of the West, my kin. They were made in Gondolin for the Goblin-wars," and he then reads their names "Glamdring" for the sword which Gandalf has chosen, and "Orcrist" for the sword of Thorin [Chapter on A Short Rest]. While runes of Gondolin are never mentioned again, Gandalf retains his sword Glamdring into the Lord of the Rings, where it appears "girt at his side" in the chapter "The Ring goes South.""
So basically, it seems to be a rather circular argument - it is know that the Runes of Gondolin exist because we have physical examples of them, but the main support for their in-story relevance seems to be the fact that Gandalf is unable to read the runes on the swords.
Incidentally, while I'm no expert on runic writing it looks to me like the word orkrist in the Gondolinic system would differ from the Angerthas Daeron with respect to the vowel o and the consonant k. In other words -rist would look the same in either system (thus the same runes for _r_rist).
Not that that matters really, or makes the name 'easy' to read or guess at. I'm just noting it, if correct 
I did double check that, and it would appear that you are correct in your translation of the runes, so we see that on Orcrist, many of the letters would have been similar. Glamdring, on the other hand, would have had more different letters, as the "G", "L", "A", "M", "D", "NG" are all different. Furthermore, many of the runes look similar, but represent different letters, so it could be that Gandalf was reading them as if they WERE Cirth and was coming up with something that made no sense at all. (Glamdring written in Gondolinian Runes would read "MZ_UGRIB" if read as Cirth)
I mean, the information I'm going on here is mainly that A) Tolkien did create a system of runes specific to Gondolin, and B) In the published version of the work, it is stated that Gandalf cannot read the runes on either Orcrist or Glamdring, but Elrond can, and explains that they were swords of Gondolin.
Beyond that, it is just logic that I'm following - why give the swords to Elrond to read if Gandalf could read them once they'd been cleaned? The way it's stated in the book, it seems to imply that Elrond's wisdom is sought because he knows runes of all kinds, implying that Gandalf didn't know this specific kind. Which, again, is nothing against Gandalf, considering it was a very specific system that had fallen out of use.
The main reason I'm not a fan of the whole blood-on-the-sword thing is, again, just logic - Thorin and Gandalf are drawn to the swords because of their beautiful scabbards and jeweled hilts - those don't sound like swords that are covered in blood. It also implies that they're in the scabbards at the time. Now, if a sword is not cleaned before it is put in its scabbard, there are going to be two problems you're going to face: First, the fact that blood is very corrosive, and would have destroyed the sword, and second, that if you place a bloody sword in a scabbard, the blood can act as an adhesive, effectively sticking the sword in the scabbard. However, I am willing to accept that elves of Gondolin, being elves, and therefore really badass, were able to manufacture blades that would not be corroded in such a way - we know that Aragorn has a sheath for Anduril so that the sword will never be stained - but if it was the same for Orcrist and Glamdring, then they wouldn't have been dirty to begin with. So it's kind of a Catch 22 - it would be possible for the sword to be assumed to be immune to the corrosion a normal blade would face because of its elven origins, but making that assumption would most likely imply that the sword would not have been stained at all in the first place.
Again, I am going beyond textual evidence here, I am just following related textual evidence to what I believe is a logical conclusion - that obviously doesn't mean that I am right.
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